Discussion:
[Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org?
Christian Gagneraud
2018-10-31 13:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Can we have Qt mailing list archive back?
I believe it is tracked by
https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTWEBSITE-831 and as been going on for
weeks. Can the "Qt Project Hosting Foundation" (from whois record)
take care of that?
What is going on?

Chris
Andy Shaw
2018-10-31 13:53:44 UTC
Permalink
It is there, but you have to go to http://lists.qt-project.org for now, it is being moved to a new server so at some point the https address will be back, but until then you need to use the http address.

Andy

Development på vegne av Christian Gagneraud <development-bounces+andy.shaw=***@qt-project.org på vegne av ***@gmail.com> skrev følgende den 31.10.2018, 14:36:

Hi,

Can we have Qt mailing list archive back?
I believe it is tracked by
https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTWEBSITE-831 and as been going on for
weeks. Can the "Qt Project Hosting Foundation" (from whois record)
take care of that?
What is going on?

Chris
_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Christian Gagneraud
2018-10-31 14:01:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 02:53, Andy Shaw <***@qt.io> wrote:
>
> It is there, but you have to go to http://lists.qt-project.org for now, it is being moved to a new server so at some point the https address will be back, but until then you need to use the http address.

In case you're not aware, HTTP is being deprecated, and modern,
up-to-date web browser will redirect you to HTTPS/443 if it is
available.
If lists.qt-project.org doesn't support HTTPS, then it shouldn't
answer on port 443.
To be clear: my web browser will redirect me to https automatically
because https is port 443 and port 443 on lists.qt-project.org is open
and responding.
The issue is that port 443 is serving plain HTTP instead of HTTPS.

In a broader statement, i'm questioning the fitness of the Qt company
to manage the qt-project.org domain.
Obviously the Qt company is not making any money with qt-project.org,
so please hand it over to the community.

Chris

>
> Andy
>
> Development på vegne av Christian Gagneraud <development-bounces+andy.shaw=***@qt-project.org på vegne av ***@gmail.com> skrev følgende den 31.10.2018, 14:36:
>
> Hi,
>
> Can we have Qt mailing list archive back?
> I believe it is tracked by
> https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTWEBSITE-831 and as been going on for
> weeks. Can the "Qt Project Hosting Foundation" (from whois record)
> take care of that?
> What is going on?
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
>
>
Christian Gagneraud
2018-10-31 21:50:26 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 05:28, Kain Vampire via Development
<***@qt-project.org> wrote:
>
> WHAT A TWAT!
>
> P.S.
>
> Yes, feel free to ban me, it was worth it.

Was it?

You could have used the word 'idiot', at least it is not an insult to
the feminine gender.
You could have as well quoted which part of the message you didn't
like. I'm taking you didn't like part 2.
This was obviously a provocative statement, but it was not an insult.

I still stand that the qt-projects.org domain should not be managed
(directly or indirectly) by the Qt Company, there is a clear conflict
of interest.
Something that has been raised several times in the past (Check the
mailing list archives about the captive/deceptive portal hat is/was
the Qt's download page).
lists.qt-projects.org has had issue for more than a month, and
(suddenly) got resolved overnight.
[Side note: http stopped to redirect to https, but https is still
down, which means that https urls returned by search engine are
broken. Whoever runs codereview.qt-project.org has access to a
wildcard ssl certificate (*.qt-project.org), but it seems that whoever
runs lists.qt-project.org doesn't.]

As an experience, try to type "download qt" in you favorite search
engine, and tell me what you get, here is my top results:
https://www.qt.io/download
https://www1.qt.io/offline-installers/
https://download.qt.io/archive/qt/
qt-project.org/downloads

The interesting bit is that qt-project.org/downloads redirects to
https://www.qt.io/download.

Basically, qt-projects.org is just a facade to qt.io, I think this is
not healthy. There is no public expression of the "Qt Project".
Concerning, the "Qt Project Hosting Foundation", i've found:
https://wiki.qt.io/Qt-contributors-summit-2014-QtCS2104_Foundation
https://investors.qt.io/governance/management/ (where it is mentioned
that Tuukka Turunen is a "Chairman of the Board of Directors in the Qt
Project Hosting Foundation")
http://website.informer.com/Cristina+Hamley+Qt+Project+Hosting+Foundation.html


Chris

PS: I do not hate the Qt Company, nor do I hate anyone working for
them. Without license, without money, there would be no "Qt Company",
and without "Qt Company", the "Qt Project" would be substantially
different. As a license owner and an OSS enthusiast I am thankful to
the Qt Company and to all numerous direct and indirect "Qt Project"
contributors.
Tuukka Turunen
2018-11-01 07:49:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Christian,

What comes to the mistake with the mailing list archive, we of course fix it. Meanwhile, use the workaround described by Andy: " It is there, but you have to go to http://lists.qt-project.org for now, it is being moved to a new server so at some point the https address will be back, but until then you need to use the http address."

What comes to the Qt Project, it is how Qt is developed - all the work done for Qt by The Qt Company is via the Qt Project. The website where this is best visible is: https://codereview.qt-project.org, also the mailing lists are with qt-project.org domain.

The reasons for not having a separate site for open-source Qt and commercial Qt are described quite well in this blog post from, 2014: http://blog.qt.io/blog/2014/08/06/defragmenting-qt-and-uniting-our-ecosystem/

The hosting foundation for Qt Project (a non-profit organization registered in Norway) is currently inoperable, costs of running the web servers, download systems etc of the Qt Project are paid directly by The Qt Company.

Yours,

Tuukka

On 31/10/2018, 23.50, "Development on behalf of Christian Gagneraud" <development-bounces+tuukka.turunen=***@qt-project.org on behalf of ***@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 05:28, Kain Vampire via Development
<***@qt-project.org> wrote:
>
> WHAT A TWAT!
>
> P.S.
>
> Yes, feel free to ban me, it was worth it.

Was it?

You could have used the word 'idiot', at least it is not an insult to
the feminine gender.
You could have as well quoted which part of the message you didn't
like. I'm taking you didn't like part 2.
This was obviously a provocative statement, but it was not an insult.

I still stand that the qt-projects.org domain should not be managed
(directly or indirectly) by the Qt Company, there is a clear conflict
of interest.
Something that has been raised several times in the past (Check the
mailing list archives about the captive/deceptive portal hat is/was
the Qt's download page).
lists.qt-projects.org has had issue for more than a month, and
(suddenly) got resolved overnight.
[Side note: http stopped to redirect to https, but https is still
down, which means that https urls returned by search engine are
broken. Whoever runs codereview.qt-project.org has access to a
wildcard ssl certificate (*.qt-project.org), but it seems that whoever
runs lists.qt-project.org doesn't.]

As an experience, try to type "download qt" in you favorite search
engine, and tell me what you get, here is my top results:
https://www.qt.io/download
https://www1.qt.io/offline-installers/
https://download.qt.io/archive/qt/
qt-project.org/downloads

The interesting bit is that qt-project.org/downloads redirects to
https://www.qt.io/download.

Basically, qt-projects.org is just a facade to qt.io, I think this is
not healthy. There is no public expression of the "Qt Project".
Concerning, the "Qt Project Hosting Foundation", i've found:
https://wiki.qt.io/Qt-contributors-summit-2014-QtCS2104_Foundation
https://investors.qt.io/governance/management/ (where it is mentioned
that Tuukka Turunen is a "Chairman of the Board of Directors in the Qt
Project Hosting Foundation")
http://website.informer.com/Cristina+Hamley+Qt+Project+Hosting+Foundation.html


Chris

PS: I do not hate the Qt Company, nor do I hate anyone working for
them. Without license, without money, there would be no "Qt Company",
and without "Qt Company", the "Qt Project" would be substantially
different. As a license owner and an OSS enthusiast I am thankful to
the Qt Company and to all numerous direct and indirect "Qt Project"
contributors.
_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Olivier Goffart
2018-11-01 09:02:37 UTC
Permalink
On 01.11.18 08:49, Tuukka Turunen wrote:
>
> Hi Christian,
>
> What comes to the mistake with the mailing list archive, we of course fix it. Meanwhile, use the workaround described by Andy: " It is there, but you have to go to http://lists.qt-project.org for now, it is being moved to a new server so at some point the https address will be back, but until then you need to use the http address."
>
> What comes to the Qt Project, it is how Qt is developed - all the work done for Qt by The Qt Company is via the Qt Project. The website where this is best visible is: https://codereview.qt-project.org, also the mailing lists are with qt-project.org domain.
>
> The reasons for not having a separate site for open-source Qt and commercial Qt are described quite well in this blog post from, 2014: http://blog.qt.io/blog/2014/08/06/defragmenting-qt-and-uniting-our-ecosystem/
>
> The hosting foundation for Qt Project (a non-profit organization registered in Norway) is currently inoperable, costs of running the web servers, download systems etc of the Qt Project are paid directly by The Qt Company.

That blog you link said it would merge the contents of qt-project.org with the
contents of digia. In practice, it just removed, or hide, all the contents from
qt-project, and replaced it by The Qt Company marketing.

At the time, qt-project.org contained useful information for and from
developers *of* Qt. The contribution model was explained, the blog links was
linking to planet qt, an aggregation of contributors blog.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140806181527/http://qt-project.org:80/

Today, qt-project.org redirects to https://www.qt.io/developers/ which is use a
page for developer *using* Qt. It contains only Qt Company links, The "Qt" blog
is just "The Qt Company" blog. It does not really mention that there are
contributors to Qt other than the Qt company.
Tuukka Turunen
2018-11-01 10:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Materials related to contributing to Qt and Qt Project are still there, not been removed, see: https://www.qt.io/contribute-to-qt, https://wiki.qt.io/Qt_Contribution_Guidelines, https://wiki.qt.io/Qt_Project_Open_Governance, and https://wiki.qt.io/The_Qt_Governance_Model - just to mention a few pages about the Qt Project and contributing to Qt.

At the time of unification qt-project.org was mainly a site for developers using Qt, built in a way that it was really laborsome to maintain. Content was carried over to more modern systems for everything that was seen relevant - including all contribution related items (which already back then were in the wiki part of the system). Because the majority of people visiting www.qt-project.org were developers of Qt applications, it redirects to the current developer page.

Things can always be improved, and constructive feedback is always welcome. But to claim the The Qt Company has removed everything related to the Qt Project is not justified in my opinion. Could these be more visible, probably. If you have suggestions, these can be done e.g. via: https://bugreports.qt.io/projects/QTWEBSITE.

Yours,

Tuukka

On 01/11/2018, 11.02, "Development on behalf of Olivier Goffart" <development-bounces+tuukka.turunen=***@qt-project.org on behalf of ***@woboq.com> wrote:

On 01.11.18 08:49, Tuukka Turunen wrote:
>
> Hi Christian,
>
> What comes to the mistake with the mailing list archive, we of course fix it. Meanwhile, use the workaround described by Andy: " It is there, but you have to go to http://lists.qt-project.org for now, it is being moved to a new server so at some point the https address will be back, but until then you need to use the http address."
>
> What comes to the Qt Project, it is how Qt is developed - all the work done for Qt by The Qt Company is via the Qt Project. The website where this is best visible is: https://codereview.qt-project.org, also the mailing lists are with qt-project.org domain.
>
> The reasons for not having a separate site for open-source Qt and commercial Qt are described quite well in this blog post from, 2014: http://blog.qt.io/blog/2014/08/06/defragmenting-qt-and-uniting-our-ecosystem/
>
> The hosting foundation for Qt Project (a non-profit organization registered in Norway) is currently inoperable, costs of running the web servers, download systems etc of the Qt Project are paid directly by The Qt Company.

That blog you link said it would merge the contents of qt-project.org with the
contents of digia. In practice, it just removed, or hide, all the contents from
qt-project, and replaced it by The Qt Company marketing.

At the time, qt-project.org contained useful information for and from
developers *of* Qt. The contribution model was explained, the blog links was
linking to planet qt, an aggregation of contributors blog.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140806181527/http://qt-project.org:80/

Today, qt-project.org redirects to https://www.qt.io/developers/ which is use a
page for developer *using* Qt. It contains only Qt Company links, The "Qt" blog
is just "The Qt Company" blog. It does not really mention that there are
contributors to Qt other than the Qt company.



_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Uwe Rathmann
2018-11-01 11:15:47 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 10:24:16 +0000, Tuukka Turunen wrote:

> Things can always be improved, and constructive feedback is always
> welcome.

The bottom line of this all is of course the fundamental question if the
Qt Project is intended to be more than simply a way how to contribute to
the products of the Qt Company ?

If it isn't it would be a matter of honesty to move everything from qt-
project.org to qt.io and tell the truth to the Qt community.

Otherwise he Qt Company has to give the Qt Project more rights to make
independent decisions - starting with having a clean separation between
the resources owned by the Qt Project and the Qt Company.

> If you have suggestions, these can be done e.g. via:
> https://bugreports.qt.io/projects/QTWEBSITE.

Are you seriously trying to redirect complaints about how the Qt Company
is misusing qt.project.org to qt.io ?

Uwe
Tuukka Turunen
2018-11-01 11:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Of course mailing list discussion is also completely fine. But in case someone has a concrete suggestion related to any of the websites, it can be also submitted via JIRA. Just like feature suggestions. It may be to not everyone was aware of this, thus I provided the link.

Yours,

Tuukka

On 01/11/2018, 13.18, "Development on behalf of Uwe Rathmann" <development-bounces+tuukka.turunen=***@qt-project.org on behalf of ***@tigertal.de> wrote:

On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 10:24:16 +0000, Tuukka Turunen wrote:

> Things can always be improved, and constructive feedback is always
> welcome.

The bottom line of this all is of course the fundamental question if the
Qt Project is intended to be more than simply a way how to contribute to
the products of the Qt Company ?

If it isn't it would be a matter of honesty to move everything from qt-
project.org to qt.io and tell the truth to the Qt community.

Otherwise he Qt Company has to give the Qt Project more rights to make
independent decisions - starting with having a clean separation between
the resources owned by the Qt Project and the Qt Company.

> If you have suggestions, these can be done e.g. via:
> https://bugreports.qt.io/projects/QTWEBSITE.

Are you seriously trying to redirect complaints about how the Qt Company
is misusing qt.project.org to qt.io ?

Uwe


_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Uwe Rathmann
2018-11-01 12:00:23 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 11:23:31 +0000, Tuukka Turunen wrote:

> Of course mailing list discussion is also completely fine.

It is more than that: it is the place where all fundamental decisions
concerning the Qt project ( like f.e. deprecating modules ) have to be
announced and discussed first - before writing devastating blog posts.

Uwe
Christian Gagneraud
2018-11-02 10:45:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
<***@qt-project.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
> I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for, it's not a justification for my actions.
> Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should not have done it.
> It won't happen again,
> Regards,
> Luca

Hi All,

I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
uncontrolled.
My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things sorted.
I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.

Chris
Lars Knoll
2018-11-02 10:55:46 UTC
Permalink
On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
<***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org>> wrote:


Hi,
I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for, it's not a justification for my actions.
Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should not have done it.
It won't happen again,
Regards,
Luca

Hi All,

I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
uncontrolled.
My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things sorted.
I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.

Thanks Chris and Luca.

Getting lists.qt-project.org<http://lists.qt-project.org> fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s won’t be too long.

But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care of the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to help getting that in place.

Cheers,
Lars
Christian Gagneraud
2018-11-02 12:08:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io> wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
> <***@qt-project.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for, it's not a justification for my actions.
> Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should not have done it.
> It won't happen again,
> Regards,
> Luca
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
> uncontrolled.
> My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things sorted.
> I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
> would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.
>
>
> Thanks Chris and Luca.
>
> Getting lists.qt-project.org fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s won’t be too long.
>
> But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care of the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to help getting that in place.

<big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">

Hi Lars,

You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.
I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
back to the Qt Project community.
I was reading a french article this morning
(https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:

Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
logistics.
Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
mean it)
=> sold for 34 billions dollars

How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?

Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
of what the Qt Company has to offer?
</big-warning>

More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
(apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)

Chris
Martin Smith
2018-11-02 12:15:46 UTC
Permalink
>You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
>I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.
>I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
>back to the Qt Project community.

But "dropped Qbs" means The Qt Company won't be developing Qbs anymore, which means, effectively, Qbs is being handed to the Qt Project community.

martin

________________________________________
From: Development <development-bounces+martin.smith=***@qt-project.org> on behalf of Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 1:08:34 PM
To: Lars Knoll
Cc: ***@qt-project.org; ***@yahoo.it
Subject: Re: [Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org?

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io> wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
> <***@qt-project.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for, it's not a justification for my actions.
> Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should not have done it.
> It won't happen again,
> Regards,
> Luca
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
> uncontrolled.
> My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things sorted.
> I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
> would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.
>
>
> Thanks Chris and Luca.
>
> Getting lists.qt-project.org fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s won’t be too long.
>
> But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care of the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to help getting that in place.

<big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">

Hi Lars,

You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.
I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
back to the Qt Project community.
I was reading a french article this morning
(https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:

Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
logistics.
Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
mean it)
=> sold for 34 billions dollars

How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?

Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
of what the Qt Company has to offer?
</big-warning>

More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
(apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)

Chris
NIkolai Marchenko
2018-11-02 12:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Yes, but you've still broken the promise made in the earlier blog post of
making qbs a replacement for qmake and build system for qt.
Also, there's a high chance that with Chrisitan Kandeler moving away, qbs
will just stagnate and die.

This was somethign that was promised to be developed and nurtured by TQtC
itself. This promise was broken.
We no longer trust TQtC with any new technology.

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 3:15 PM Martin Smith <***@qt.io> wrote:

> >You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> >I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing
> personal.
> >I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> >back to the Qt Project community.
>
> But "dropped Qbs" means The Qt Company won't be developing Qbs anymore,
> which means, effectively, Qbs is being handed to the Qt Project community.
>
> martin
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Development <development-bounces+martin.smith=***@qt-project.org>
> on behalf of Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 1:08:34 PM
> To: Lars Knoll
> Cc: ***@qt-project.org; ***@yahoo.it
> Subject: Re: [Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org?
>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
> > <***@qt-project.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian
> Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for,
> it's not a justification for my actions.
> > Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should
> not have done it.
> > It won't happen again,
> > Regards,
> > Luca
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
> > uncontrolled.
> > My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things
> sorted.
> > I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
> > would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.
> >
> >
> > Thanks Chris and Luca.
> >
> > Getting lists.qt-project.org fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s
> won’t be too long.
> >
> > But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care of
> the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active
> monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get
> fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to
> help getting that in place.
>
> <big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
> warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">
>
> Hi Lars,
>
> You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing
> personal.
> I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> back to the Qt Project community.
> I was reading a french article this morning
> (https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
> syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:
>
> Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
> sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
> logistics.
> Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
> Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
> mean it)
> => sold for 34 billions dollars
>
> How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?
>
> Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
> of what the Qt Company has to offer?
> </big-warning>
>
> More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
> Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
> (apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
> But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
>
Christian Gagneraud
2018-11-02 12:20:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 01:15, Martin Smith <***@qt.io> wrote:
>
> >You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> >I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.
> >I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> >back to the Qt Project community.
>
> But "dropped Qbs" means The Qt Company won't be developing Qbs anymore, which means, effectively, Qbs is being handed to the Qt Project community.

<sarcasm>
Community? Like http://qt-project.org? There's no such thing,
everything is controlled by qt.io. Let's face it, just do a pen test
of qt.io, qt-project.org and digia.com to see how things are
organised.
</sarcasm>

I was told, there's a qbs.io or something going on?

Chris
Christian Gagneraud
2018-11-02 12:40:58 UTC
Permalink
> I was told, there's a qbs.io or something going on?

Wow, kudo to whoever, qbs.io redirects to doc.qt.io/qbs

Chris
NIkolai Marchenko
2018-11-02 12:26:55 UTC
Permalink
TQtC has essentially alienated the very people they want to have on their
side for new stuff: early adopters.
People willing to try and help develop stuff for them. I will not feel
inclined to try anything new you guys showcase in teh future.
Have fun devoping technologies without testers.

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 3:15 PM Martin Smith <***@qt.io> wrote:

> >You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> >I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing
> personal.
> >I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> >back to the Qt Project community.
>
> But "dropped Qbs" means The Qt Company won't be developing Qbs anymore,
> which means, effectively, Qbs is being handed to the Qt Project community.
>
> martin
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Development <development-bounces+martin.smith=***@qt-project.org>
> on behalf of Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 1:08:34 PM
> To: Lars Knoll
> Cc: ***@qt-project.org; ***@yahoo.it
> Subject: Re: [Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org?
>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
> > <***@qt-project.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian
> Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for,
> it's not a justification for my actions.
> > Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should
> not have done it.
> > It won't happen again,
> > Regards,
> > Luca
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
> > uncontrolled.
> > My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things
> sorted.
> > I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
> > would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.
> >
> >
> > Thanks Chris and Luca.
> >
> > Getting lists.qt-project.org fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s
> won’t be too long.
> >
> > But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care of
> the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active
> monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get
> fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to
> help getting that in place.
>
> <big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
> warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">
>
> Hi Lars,
>
> You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing
> personal.
> I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> back to the Qt Project community.
> I was reading a french article this morning
> (https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
> syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:
>
> Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
> sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
> logistics.
> Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
> Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
> mean it)
> => sold for 34 billions dollars
>
> How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?
>
> Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
> of what the Qt Company has to offer?
> </big-warning>
>
> More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
> Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
> (apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
> But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
>
Tuukka Turunen
2018-11-02 12:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Exactly. We are very pleased if there are people who start to contribute to Qbs. So far it has been very little by others than employees of The Qt Company.

We will continue maintaining Qbs so that it stays supported until end of 2019 and also release a new version in April 2019 as promised. Most likely Qbs remains usable a long time after support ends - even without anyone from the community working on it.

This is a good opportunity for those interested in further developing Qbs to step up and start taking it forward. We can help with the reviews and provide the infrastructure. We can help even with new releases, if there is enough interest to develop it further.

I do not think anyone questions the technical merits of Qbs over qmake or CMake. Qbs is better than these in many ways. For that reason we have kept on investing into it. But we also need to be realistic and think about what paying customers prefer. While we have some customers using Qbs, the use of CMake is much, much bigger. Both by the number of customers using it and by the size of the customers' usage.

We probably should have opened the dialogue about the future of Qbs during the process of thinking about the options. This would have been good and fair towards the community. But it would not change the facts - it is an impossibly huge task to replace CMake with Qbs even within the Qt users, let alone outside of Qt.

Yours,

Tuukka

On 02/11/2018, 14.15, "Development on behalf of Martin Smith" <development-bounces+tuukka.turunen=***@qt-project.org on behalf of ***@qt.io> wrote:

>You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
>I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.
>I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
>back to the Qt Project community.

But "dropped Qbs" means The Qt Company won't be developing Qbs anymore, which means, effectively, Qbs is being handed to the Qt Project community.

martin

________________________________________
From: Development <development-bounces+martin.smith=***@qt-project.org> on behalf of Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 1:08:34 PM
To: Lars Knoll
Cc: ***@qt-project.org; ***@yahoo.it
Subject: Re: [Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org?

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io> wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
> <***@qt-project.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for, it's not a justification for my actions.
> Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should not have done it.
> It won't happen again,
> Regards,
> Luca
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
> uncontrolled.
> My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things sorted.
> I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
> would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.
>
>
> Thanks Chris and Luca.
>
> Getting lists.qt-project.org fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s won’t be too long.
>
> But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care of the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to help getting that in place.

<big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">

Hi Lars,

You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.
I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
back to the Qt Project community.
I was reading a french article this morning
(https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:

Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
logistics.
Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
mean it)
=> sold for 34 billions dollars

How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?

Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
of what the Qt Company has to offer?
</big-warning>

More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
(apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)

Chris
_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
NIkolai Marchenko
2018-11-02 13:03:31 UTC
Permalink
> But it would not change the facts - it is an impossibly huge task to
replace CMake with Qbs even within the Qt users, let alone outside of Qt.

Yes... then you *should not have encouraged* your customers to switch in
the first place.
Either you are committed to keep you *promises* or you are not.
Promises that have been done *less than a year* ago.

Whether it was a dumb decision to make such a promise is another question,
but you *made it* and people actually migrated to qbs and now risk getting
straddled with dead build system in their projects.
If you make such a promise, be prepared to either keep it or suffer the
mistrust of your users.

There's plenty of salt in your blog post about it: these are all people
that will think ten times before adopting anything of yours again.
Personally, I will discourage anyone from trusting you ever again. I hope
others do too.
Is *this* a risk you are willing to take?

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 3:44 PM Tuukka Turunen <***@qt.io> wrote:

>
> Exactly. We are very pleased if there are people who start to contribute
> to Qbs. So far it has been very little by others than employees of The Qt
> Company.
>
> We will continue maintaining Qbs so that it stays supported until end of
> 2019 and also release a new version in April 2019 as promised. Most likely
> Qbs remains usable a long time after support ends - even without anyone
> from the community working on it.
>
> This is a good opportunity for those interested in further developing Qbs
> to step up and start taking it forward. We can help with the reviews and
> provide the infrastructure. We can help even with new releases, if there is
> enough interest to develop it further.
>
> I do not think anyone questions the technical merits of Qbs over qmake or
> CMake. Qbs is better than these in many ways. For that reason we have kept
> on investing into it. But we also need to be realistic and think about what
> paying customers prefer. While we have some customers using Qbs, the use of
> CMake is much, much bigger. Both by the number of customers using it and by
> the size of the customers' usage.
>
> We probably should have opened the dialogue about the future of Qbs during
> the process of thinking about the options. This would have been good and
> fair towards the community. But it would not change the facts - it is an
> impossibly huge task to replace CMake with Qbs even within the Qt users,
> let alone outside of Qt.
>
> Yours,
>
> Tuukka
>
> On 02/11/2018, 14.15, "Development on behalf of Martin Smith"
> <development-bounces+tuukka.turunen=***@qt-project.org on behalf of
> ***@qt.io> wrote:
>
> >You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> >I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent -
> Nothing personal.
> >I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> >back to the Qt Project community.
>
> But "dropped Qbs" means The Qt Company won't be developing Qbs
> anymore, which means, effectively, Qbs is being handed to the Qt Project
> community.
>
> martin
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Development <development-bounces+martin.smith=
> ***@qt-project.org> on behalf of Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 1:08:34 PM
> To: Lars Knoll
> Cc: ***@qt-project.org; ***@yahoo.it
> Subject: Re: [Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org?
>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
> > <***@qt-project.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian
> Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for,
> it's not a justification for my actions.
> > Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I
> should not have done it.
> > It won't happen again,
> > Regards,
> > Luca
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation
> went
> > uncontrolled.
> > My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things
> sorted.
> > I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online
> and
> > would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.
> >
> >
> > Thanks Chris and Luca.
> >
> > Getting lists.qt-project.org fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s
> won’t be too long.
> >
> > But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care
> of the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active
> monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get
> fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to
> help getting that in place.
>
> <big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
> warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">
>
> Hi Lars,
>
> You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing
> personal.
> I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> back to the Qt Project community.
> I was reading a french article this morning
> (https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
> syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:
>
> Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
> sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
> logistics.
> Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
> Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
> mean it)
> => sold for 34 billions dollars
>
> How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?
>
> Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
> of what the Qt Company has to offer?
> </big-warning>
>
> More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
> Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
> (apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
> But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
>
Julius Bullinger
2018-11-02 13:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tuukka,

On 02.11.2018 13:44, Tuukka Turunen wrote:
> Exactly. We are very pleased if there are people who start to
> contribute to Qbs. So far it has been very little by others than
> employees of The Qt Company.
>
> We will continue maintaining Qbs so that it stays supported until end
> of 2019 and also release a new version in April 2019 as promised.
> Most likely Qbs remains usable a long time after support ends - even
> without anyone from the community working on it.
>
> This is a good opportunity for those interested in further developing
> Qbs to step up and start taking it forward. We can help with the
> reviews and provide the infrastructure. We can help even with new
> releases, if there is enough interest to develop it further.

To be honest, that's not at all what the blog post at
http://blog.qt.io/blog/2018/10/29/deprecation-of-qbs/ suggests:

> We have decided to deprecate Qbs and redirect our resources to
> increase support for CMake.
The keyword here being "deprecate". You're not saying "The Qt Company is
pulling resources", you're saying "Qbs will go away, don't use it
anymore" ("you" being TQtC). The first one would be fine, the latter one
is a clear signal to stay away from it.

If Qbs is independent from TQtC (what the discussion here suggests),
than TQtC is in no position to _deprecate_ it.

> We probably should have opened the dialogue about the future of Qbs
> during the process of thinking about the options. This would have
> been good and fair towards the community.

I think TQtC has every right to say "we won't be
supporting/funding/developing Qbs anymore" (as it seems to have happened
with Qt Widgets IIRC), but announcing its deprecation is a completely
different beast IMO.
NIkolai Marchenko
2018-11-02 13:10:50 UTC
Permalink
(thiws was originally sent only to Tuukka, resending)

I would also like to point out the mistrust you've created by proxy.
In believing your promises people have migrated projects at their jobs to
qbs.
Now they will be known as too hasty adopters of dead systems.
Not saying it will be the case for everyone but what you did *really* hurts
your early adopters in more than one way.

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 3:44 PM Tuukka Turunen <***@qt.io> wrote:

>
> Exactly. We are very pleased if there are people who start to contribute
> to Qbs. So far it has been very little by others than employees of The Qt
> Company.
>
> We will continue maintaining Qbs so that it stays supported until end of
> 2019 and also release a new version in April 2019 as promised. Most likely
> Qbs remains usable a long time after support ends - even without anyone
> from the community working on it.
>
> This is a good opportunity for those interested in further developing Qbs
> to step up and start taking it forward. We can help with the reviews and
> provide the infrastructure. We can help even with new releases, if there is
> enough interest to develop it further.
>
> I do not think anyone questions the technical merits of Qbs over qmake or
> CMake. Qbs is better than these in many ways. For that reason we have kept
> on investing into it. But we also need to be realistic and think about what
> paying customers prefer. While we have some customers using Qbs, the use of
> CMake is much, much bigger. Both by the number of customers using it and by
> the size of the customers' usage.
>
> We probably should have opened the dialogue about the future of Qbs during
> the process of thinking about the options. This would have been good and
> fair towards the community. But it would not change the facts - it is an
> impossibly huge task to replace CMake with Qbs even within the Qt users,
> let alone outside of Qt.
>
> Yours,
>
> Tuukka
>
> On 02/11/2018, 14.15, "Development on behalf of Martin Smith"
> <development-bounces+tuukka.turunen=***@qt-project.org on behalf of
> ***@qt.io> wrote:
>
> >You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> >I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent -
> Nothing personal.
> >I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> >back to the Qt Project community.
>
> But "dropped Qbs" means The Qt Company won't be developing Qbs
> anymore, which means, effectively, Qbs is being handed to the Qt Project
> community.
>
> martin
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Development <development-bounces+martin.smith=
> ***@qt-project.org> on behalf of Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 1:08:34 PM
> To: Lars Knoll
> Cc: ***@qt-project.org; ***@yahoo.it
> Subject: Re: [Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org?
>
> On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
> > <***@qt-project.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian
> Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for,
> it's not a justification for my actions.
> > Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I
> should not have done it.
> > It won't happen again,
> > Regards,
> > Luca
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation
> went
> > uncontrolled.
> > My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things
> sorted.
> > I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online
> and
> > would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.
> >
> >
> > Thanks Chris and Luca.
> >
> > Getting lists.qt-project.org fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s
> won’t be too long.
> >
> > But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care
> of the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active
> monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get
> fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to
> help getting that in place.
>
> <big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
> warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">
>
> Hi Lars,
>
> You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
> I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing
> personal.
> I think that it is time for the qt-project.org domain to be handed
> back to the Qt Project community.
> I was reading a french article this morning
> (https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
> syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:
>
> Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
> sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
> logistics.
> Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
> Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
> mean it)
> => sold for 34 billions dollars
>
> How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?
>
> Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
> of what the Qt Company has to offer?
> </big-warning>
>
> More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
> Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
> (apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
> But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)
>
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Development mailing list
> ***@qt-project.org
> http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
>
Tuukka Turunen
2018-11-02 13:43:40 UTC
Permalink
Here is what I replied to the mail (when sent to me only):

Hi,

This is absolutely true and we are well aware of this.

We had a bit similar issue earlier when we ramped down engin.io backend: https://blog.qt.io/blog/2016/01/26/notification-for-all-qt-cloud-services-users/

We try to avoid such things as much as possible, but sometimes we have to stop developing some item. Even when there are still users who depend upon it.

We also try to make it as smooth as we can – for example by keeping the deprecated feature usable for quite long time to allow enough time for transition.

Yours,

Tuukka


From: NIkolai Marchenko <***@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, 2 November 2018 at 15.11
To: Tuukka Turunen <***@qt.io>
Cc: Martin Smith <***@qt.io>, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com>, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io>, Qt development mailing list <***@qt-project.org>, "***@yahoo.it" <***@yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org?

(thiws was originally sent only to Tuukka, resending)

I would also like to point out the mistrust you've created by proxy.
In believing your promises people have migrated projects at their jobs to qbs.
Now they will be known as too hasty adopters of dead systems.
Not saying it will be the case for everyone but what you did *really* hurts your early adopters in more than one way.

On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 3:44 PM Tuukka Turunen <***@qt.io<mailto:***@qt.io>> wrote:

Exactly. We are very pleased if there are people who start to contribute to Qbs. So far it has been very little by others than employees of The Qt Company.

We will continue maintaining Qbs so that it stays supported until end of 2019 and also release a new version in April 2019 as promised. Most likely Qbs remains usable a long time after support ends - even without anyone from the community working on it.

This is a good opportunity for those interested in further developing Qbs to step up and start taking it forward. We can help with the reviews and provide the infrastructure. We can help even with new releases, if there is enough interest to develop it further.

I do not think anyone questions the technical merits of Qbs over qmake or CMake. Qbs is better than these in many ways. For that reason we have kept on investing into it. But we also need to be realistic and think about what paying customers prefer. While we have some customers using Qbs, the use of CMake is much, much bigger. Both by the number of customers using it and by the size of the customers' usage.

We probably should have opened the dialogue about the future of Qbs during the process of thinking about the options. This would have been good and fair towards the community. But it would not change the facts - it is an impossibly huge task to replace CMake with Qbs even within the Qt users, let alone outside of Qt.

Yours,

Tuukka

On 02/11/2018, 14.15, "Development on behalf of Martin Smith" <development-bounces+tuukka.turunen=***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org> on behalf of ***@qt.io<mailto:***@qt.io>> wrote:

>You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
>I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.
>I think that it is time for the qt-project.org<http://qt-project.org> domain to be handed
>back to the Qt Project community.

But "dropped Qbs" means The Qt Company won't be developing Qbs anymore, which means, effectively, Qbs is being handed to the Qt Project community.

martin

________________________________________
From: Development <development-bounces+martin.smith=***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org>> on behalf of Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>>
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 1:08:34 PM
To: Lars Knoll
Cc: ***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org>; ***@yahoo.it<mailto:***@yahoo.it>
Subject: Re: [Development] Who is in charge of qt-project.org<http://qt-project.org>?

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io<mailto:***@qt.io>> wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
> <***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
> I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for, it's not a justification for my actions.
> Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should not have done it.
> It won't happen again,
> Regards,
> Luca
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
> uncontrolled.
> My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things sorted.
> I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
> would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.
>
>
> Thanks Chris and Luca.
>
> Getting lists.qt-project.org<http://lists.qt-project.org> fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s won’t be too long.
>
> But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care of the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to help getting that in place.

<big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">

Hi Lars,

You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.
I think that it is time for the qt-project.org<http://qt-project.org> domain to be handed
back to the Qt Project community.
I was reading a french article this morning
(https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:

Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
logistics.
Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
mean it)
=> sold for 34 billions dollars

How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?

Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
of what the Qt Company has to offer?
</big-warning>

More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
(apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)

Chris
_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org>
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org>
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development


_______________________________________________
Development mailing list
***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org>
http://lists.qt-project.org/mailman/listinfo/development
Richard Weickelt
2018-11-02 17:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Tuukka,

On 02.11.2018 13:44, Tuukka Turunen wrote:
>
> Exactly. We are very pleased if there are people who start to contribute
> to Qbs. So far it has been very little by others than employees of The Qt
> Company.

Here are some possible reasons:
- the Qbs core code base is complex
- the code contains very little documentation
- the codebase evolved fast
- technical decisions and planning happened
behind closed doors
- most users were comfortable with the development
speed and TQtC employees fixing bugs and helping
on the mailing list.

I'd say that TQtC employees have done an excellent (technical) development
job, really. But that alone has not lead to a healthy community of
contributors. This is not to blame TQtC, it's my personal view from outside.
I haven't contributed anything to Qbs, but I have been following the
development with high interest and I am happily using it.

> We will continue maintaining Qbs so that it stays supported until end of
> 2019 and also release a new version in April 2019 as promised. Most
> likely Qbs remains usable a long time after support ends - even without
> anyone from the community working on it.
>
> This is a good opportunity for those interested in further developing Qbs
> to step up and start taking it forward. We can help with the reviews and
> provide the infrastructure. We can help even with new releases, if there
> is enough interest to develop it further.

Could you please post that on the Qbs mailing list, maybe even in the blog?
I believe that this is the right communication style to go forward and it is
very important that TQtC communicates proactively and clearly what it can
help with. I don't expect You to coddle the community, but please keep in
mind that there is very little community feeling until now. We are starting
almost at 0 now.

> I do not think anyone questions the technical merits of Qbs over qmake or
> CMake. Qbs is better than these in many ways. For that reason we have
> kept on investing into it. But we also need to be realistic and think
> about what paying customers prefer. While we have some customers using
> Qbs, the use of CMake is much, much bigger. Both by the number of
> customers using it and by the size of the customers' usage.
>
> We probably should have opened the dialogue about the future of Qbs
> during the process of thinking about the options. This would have been
> good and fair towards the community.

Absolutely, yes! That's too late now. But it's not too late to keep Qbs
alive. For example, you could start by revising your blog post and giving it
a more inviting character. Next step could be maybe a meeting with community
members where we would clarify how the commitment of the TQtC looks like. I
am sure that there are many open questions.

Thank You
Richard
Lars Knoll
2018-11-02 12:45:45 UTC
Permalink
On 2 Nov 2018, at 13:08, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 at 23:55, Lars Knoll <***@qt.io<mailto:***@qt.io>> wrote:


On 2 Nov 2018, at 11:45, Christian Gagneraud <***@gmail.com<mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 22:25, Kain Vampire via Development
<***@qt-project.org<mailto:***@qt-project.org>> wrote:



Hi,
I have to apologise for my behaviour. While I still think Christian Gagneraud's attack on the Qt company abilities was unfair and uncalled for, it's not a justification for my actions.
Creating an hostile environment is bad for the community and I should not have done it.
It won't happen again,
Regards,
Luca


Hi All,

I would like to apologise as well, my sarcasm and my provocation went
uncontrolled.
My fault, this was definitely not the most clever way to get things sorted.
I'm looking forward HTTPS://lists.qt-project.org to be back online and
would like to thanks everyone working on the matter.


Thanks Chris and Luca.

Getting lists.qt-project.org<http://lists.qt-project.org> fixed is being worked on. I hope it’s won’t be too long.

But there’s something to take away for TQtC as the party taking care of the infrastructure here. TQtC needs to establish some more pro-active monitoring of the infrastructure so that these things will get ideally get fixed before they become a problem next time. I’ll see what I can do to help getting that in place.

<big-warning message="not cool at all" apologies="you have been
warned, do not keep reading if you do not fell comfortable">

Hi Lars,

You've just dropped Qbs, what's next?
I don't trust you anymore, nor the company-ies you represent - Nothing personal.

We’ve dropped other things in the past for various reasons. That is true both for TQtC and the Qt project.

Fact is that the only entity working on qbs has been The Qt Company. As such, that company can make decisions on whether TQtC wants to or can continue investing in something or not. Those decisions are never easy, but as a company you sometimes have to also decide what to not continue doing, and where to focus your resources.

The Qt Project can not dictate what The Qt Company does there, just as much as it can not force individual people to work on any specific part of Qt.

Qbs as a project will continue to be available on qt-project.org<http://qt-project.org>. Nobody is going to remove it from there, and I am (now moving over to wearing my Chief Maintainer hat) happy to host it here and provide infrastructure for it. As I said earlier, I very much like the technology, and it would be great if it continued to evolve. I do understand that there’s a large risk this won’t happen without TQtC’s investment though.

But we are still doing some work on Qbs, and will have one more feature release on it, where we try to bring it to a good and stable state. So continuing from there might not be as difficult as you think.

Lars

I think that it is time for the qt-project.org<http://qt-project.org/> domain to be handed
back to the Qt Project community.
I was reading a french article this morning
(https://linuxfr.org/news/fedora-29), i give you an inaccurate, but
syntactic and compact translation of the article introduction:

Fedora is a GNU/Linux distribution developed by the Fedora Project and
sponsored by Red Hat that provide them with developers, finance and
logistics.
Fedora can be seen as an open source technological show case of Red
Hat proprietary technology. (NDLR: Free and inaccurate translation, i
mean it)
=> sold for 34 billions dollars

How do you fell about that? Do you see similarities?

Is the triple-licensed Qt stack an open source technological show case
of what the Qt Company has to offer?
</big-warning>

More seriously, yes, Fedora/RedHat and
Qt/Project/Company/Digia/Nokia/Microsoft/TrollTech are different beast
(apple and oranges, yadi, yada, ...).
But I see similarities. (and i do not care about the 34 billions)

Chris
r***@centrum.cz
2018-11-02 14:35:17 UTC
Permalink
> Here is what I replied to the mail (when sent to me only):
> 
> Hi,
> This is absolutely true and we are well aware of this.
> We had a bit similar issue earlier when we ramped down engin.io backend: https://blog.qt.io/blog/2016/01/26/notification-for-all-qt-cloud-services-users/
> We try to avoid such things as much as possible, but sometimes we have to stop developing some item. Even when there are still users who depend upon it.
> We also try to make it as smooth as we can – for example by keeping the deprecated feature usable for quite long time to allow enough time for transition.
> Yours,
> Tuukka
 
It seems to differ quite a bit in scale. That blog post has 7 comments. Compare it to nearly 150 on "Deprecation of Qbs" in 3 days and countless emails here on the mailing list. I seem to wonder if the whole issue could be avoided if it was approached a bit more diplomatically from the Qt Company's side. After all there is a point of you advertising the Qbs as the future before. The Qt Project has large community and maybe if you tried to hand it over to someone else in it things would not accrue nearly as much controversy. For example publically looking for a new maintainer with the goal to have it purely community driven in a year (and announce it as such). Rather than dropping the bomb-like title such as "Deprecation of Qbs".
 
It is a differnet situation to deprecating of an old technology (like Qt Quick Controls 1), isn't it? You are not doing it with Qbs on technical grounds but rather on business grounds so giving it the same treatment is just wrong in my opinion. Since your plan is to invest in it for a year anyway it would be better to spend that time (and money) on actively working to hand it over to someone. There have been people (and companies) in this very mailing list (and Qbs one) that said they would take it over. Announcing it to the world and waiting for the community to magically appear and contribute did not work during Qbs' life under the Qt Company (although after you invested in the docs its usage started to spike this year) so please do not make the same mistake again and give it a chance for real this time by _actively_ trying to hand it to someone else.
 
Michael
Richard Weickelt
2018-11-02 17:03:07 UTC
Permalink
> It seems to differ quite a bit in scale. That blog post has 7 comments.
> Compare it to nearly 150 on "Deprecation of Qbs" in 3 days and countless
> emails here on the mailing list. I seem to wonder if the whole issue
> could be avoided if it was approached a bit more diplomatically from the
> Qt Company's side. After all there is a point of you advertising the Qbs
> as the future before. The Qt Project has large community and maybe if you
> tried to hand it over to someone else in it things would not accrue
> nearly as much controversy. For example publically looking for a new
> maintainer with the goal to have it purely community driven in a year
> (and announce it as such). Rather than dropping the bomb-like title such
> as "Deprecation of Qbs".
>
>
>
> It is a differnet situation to deprecating of an old technology (like Qt
> Quick Controls 1), isn't it? You are not doing it with Qbs on technical
> grounds but rather on business grounds so giving it the same treatment
> is just wrong in my opinion. Since your plan is to invest in it for a
> year anyway it would be better to spend that time (and money) on actively
> working to hand it over to someone. There have been people (and
> companies) in this very mailing list (and Qbs one) that said they would
> take it over. Announcing it to the world and waiting for the community to
> magically appear and contribute did not work during Qbs' life under the
> Qt Company (although after you invested in the docs its usage started to
> spike this year) so please do not make the same mistake again and give it
> a chance for real this time by _actively_ trying to hand it to someone
> else.

Thanks, Michael. This eMail contains pretty much what I have been thinking
during the last days as well. Well written.
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